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Lion vs. Tiger
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Prime : I'm almost convinced the Lion is "King of all beast" . Seriously , thank you for making this thread so informative. You have saved me and others hundreds of hours of research to come up with an educated guess. My hat's of to you.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lions have way more fighting experince then Tigers

Lets go through the stages of there lives where both wild lions and wild tigers would gain fighting experince.

Stage #1 Cub years:

Lions and tigers spend there child hood play fighting an harnessing the nessesary skills they need in defending them selves. But tigers are usually like any other cat an live a life of solitude having only the female take care of the cubs, while the lion lives in prides, which consist of usualy 2 males and 8 females, an some prides can grow as large as 30 lions in a single pride. So while tiger cubs have 2-4 siblings to practice his fighting skills...


lion cubs have not only brothers an sisters and half brothers an sisters, but along them they have cousins to practice more consistantly an more often...



Lion fighting experinces=1
Tiger fighting experinces=1

Like all other big cats except the lion, Male tigers live a life of solitude, an abondins the cubs to the female, so cubs rarely see’s the tigress who is off hunting to feed them, unlike the lion who has usually the female lion parent anty or guardian provide the meals while the "males" usually watch over the cubs. In these times tiger cubs usually watch over them selves an stay in hidden dense or thick bushes, while lion cubs can fully be protected at all times by the male lions weather if it’s the father or the uncle who in verse grooms and plays with them as well as teaching them in rough play more fighting skills. Tigers must live the life of an assassin an adapt to the life-style of a ninja, while lions live there life of an Mma fighter who must adapt to the life style of a  spartan…

http://books.google.com/books?id=...amp;ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

Lion fighting experinces=2
Tiger fighting experinces=1

Stage #2 Teen years:

In this stage of usual 1-2 years old, the tiger siblings separate an take there own paths, traveling far and wide to covering new territorys to claim for them selves, this halts an slowly diminshes over the next months to years of there lives lessening there fighting capabilitys until later, an brands him like all other cats straight into the world of a supreme hunter, needing hunt to feed only him self.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tb...OyqutXK1o8GVGaV7JPA_Du6LFv0Yz1wsI

Lions in there teen years remain in prides, if they do get driven off they form coalitions. These years they get to remain game an practice on there whole pride or group.


If they remain they will be still constantly tawt dicipline from there father, something the tiger wouldent have the luxery of...


Lion experinces=3
Tiger experinces=1


In almost every kill the pride makes, fights break out in who eats first. Un-like the tiger who is usually solitary, wont have this amount of fighting weekly an monthly "Game-ness" through out his entire life, which can consist of minor domination fights between uncles an antys, to fathers and sons, brothers and sisters an some esculating to full on fighting, as they say only the strong survives…

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs36/i...82/b/3/Lions_feeding_by_alecd.jpg


Lion fighting experinces=4
Tiger fighting experinces=1

From time to time lions being in groups an coalitions fight just for the sake of it, due to tempers that fly on rank an statuses…


http://jeffup.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/mrtslastbattle.jpg
http://www.vesch.nl/lionsfight_files/collage_lb_image_page26_6_1.jpg

Lion fighting experinces=5
Tiger fighting experinces=1

Lions are by far, more noisey’r than tigers in the day and at night, they display the power an owner-ship of territory by having a single male roar…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXkGSc6d0xQ

to coaltion of lions roaring…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTDt4cWaZn0

or the entire pride roar-ing weekly,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKS_Cgkqmoo

which atracts near by rival lions to accepting and dishing out a challenge, while tigers usually just roar or chuff to locate there cubs or alert a mate of there locations.

Lion fighting experinces=6
Tiger fighting experinces=1

Stage #3 Adult Years:

As adults like any animal, insect, human, terestrial… has times of mating where the females go into estress an the male testosterone seeks out the females in those times. So they will most likely all 3; male, male an female cross paths more in these times than any other, an the males will fight for rights to mate. But again tigers, unlike lions who are solitary, will most likely face a one on one challenge…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Ybg8R5U_Y

while lions sometimes must face multiple lions…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pca5u-ud5Ag
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1419305/lion_vs_4_lions/

Lion fighting experinces=7
Tiger fighting experinces=2

Tigers usually live in thick jungles, that have very tall grass, a huge amount of plants an vegatations, an many big trees that are compact, dense, an next to the other. They often scent mark an leave scratches on trees to mark there territory, but actually seeing another tiger can be very difficult even if they are in the same radius, because they prefer to stay hidden…

while lions prefer to live out in the open savannah, where there’s bush thickets an trees are far away in open grounds, so spoting another lion is by far more easyer… from in close ranges to even vast amount of distances, which would lead to more confrontations than tigers.


Lion experinces=8
Tiger experinces=2-1/2

The saying of a lion only fights and a tiger only hunts isint and wont ever be 100% true, but it is quite accurate to a degree of the life styles they live, male lions will fight more than male tigers averagely due to the fact lions are social , and a male tiger will hunt more than a male lion averagely due to the fact he is solitary…
The primary job for a male tiger is to be a good hunter fighting will come rarely, only in two main themes of his life… mating an territory. Now for male lions who often do the heavy lifting an take down the bigger animals in times of the chase, the females majority of the time do the hunting, which leaves the male most of his time scouting his territory to protect his cubs, which murading male lions often kill cubs to make the females return faster into estress. So the primary job of male lions are to fight, they often have to fight males in single combat or as much as a coalition to even as great as a entire rival pride. This is the general basis of how the lion has gotten his title as King. As a King will go to war to protect his people. The tiger wont, the only big cat (The male lion) will do the same as any noble King would do for his Pride an family.

Lion experinces=10
Tiger experinces=2-1/2

So there you have it, lions fight and gain more fighting experince than tigers at 10 to 2-1/2… which puts it at, lions fight 75% more than tigers on average. That is the equivelent of taking a mountain man rambo like human and putting him in the octagon to fight a mma pro like Anderson silva. There are chances Rambo (The Tiger) can lay one of his signature death moves if he is aided by his thick jungle setting an ambush tactics on anderson the spider silva (The Lion) but it seems 75% of the time in a open challenge where two of the combatants are aware an initate a fair fight, Anderson will drop Rambo before he can do anything at all.

Most of the people who imagine that tigers fight more than lions really are clueless in just how much lions fight and have actually seen any data or records of tigers fight (There are little), a tiger would hardly ever encounter another tiger, if so the only data we have are of single tigers accumilating no more than 6 encounters in his life (Head to head fight), not all will be to death just intimidating and bluffs, and only a few might go to actual death with some-times both combatants surcumbimg to there wounds...six, thats it, thats no where near what a single pride or coalition can (Gain Fighting Experince from) lions have killed 10x more than any tiger will ever be able too, we have a testimonial here from a well established "Anti Poacher"....

Willem Botha:

"During the time that I was Head of Anti Poaching in the Sabi Sands and did problem animal control in the entire reserve, I counted more than 100 other lions killed by the Mapogo’s. I myself had to shoot 13 lions who’s backs were broken by the Mapogos and left to die a horrible death."
http://blog.sunsafaris.com/2012/0...pogo-male-lions-by-brett-thomson/

Thats one pride/coalition of brothers that killed more of there kind (Hundreds of lions) then any tiger morality census ever, probably more than a years worth of over a 100 tigers combined of what there natrual life long battles were/would be. Simply because for a tiger to fight in the wild is rare altogether/overall statistics in comparisons to lions.

If you would have taken a coalition along with some female lions from this mapogo pride, (Hypotheticaly) into a tiger-rich enviorment of any of there existing lands in india, the tigers would literaly be wiped out.

The male lion is unique compared to any other cat, he is the only member of the panthera family to condole and embody him self in the role of a protecter; he must be alert through his reigning years as ruler of his pride because other nomadic male lions often always will kill the cubs, so the females will go into heat and want to produce more cubs, it is a hard and harsh reality for un-protected cubs...


So the role of the male lion is to prevent these constant cycles of barbarism; taking it upoun himself and engulf his life and status as any true warrior would, to have something to fight for, something to stand behind, a symbol...a symbol of nobility and strength.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itFhIgr5ZvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfYqDjDtjbQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF7i3YNTwR8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIpsCcRz-mQ

This is why the lion is also held higher in healdry in almost every culture and nationality on the planet; over the tiger, he is majority of the worlds symbol of....

Power


Last edited by Silver Prime on Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:59 am; edited 9 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Power of the Lions Mane



Can a lion kill a tiger? Yes, can a tiger kill a lion? Yes, is the mane impenetrable? No, I am just here to show all the content every ignorant or deceptive, or denying fanatic site is hideing saying that the lions mane offers no protection, this post will show that to a degree a certain extent a lions mane has records of events and or experts opinions (who are qualified) with some even under their own observation will testify that the lions mane protects his head area, mainly the vital kill spot, the neck/throat. If the links or gifs do not show, the bandwith must of timed out, which is no problem, it often renews, or some details via names places will be left to the original source, via person, place or thing. Before we get started I'd like to cover, or perhaps just make fun of the report and account of alot of fanatics cling too for dear life, which is...


The study of Dummie/Manican lions where they tested if the lion would target the throat area, they hypothisies'd that if the lions attack the manicans in the mane areas it subsides as proof that its for protection an a defense attribute because they then stated the lions didn't target the neck area and is just a sexual orientation for attracting females...XD XD XD

First of all....lol Thats one of the most deluded thing's I've ever heard.

-The lions didn't attack the neck area of the manicans because they wern't real.
-No movement., means no serious attack...would a tiger sohphicate a already stiff dead animal? lol No Just like playing an nawing on a stuff doll.
-Lions dont target the throat in general or atleast at first because they already know its for protection, would you pick up a porcupine by its quils? No.
-If you fought a man who had a suit of armor on, would you use your sword to strike the area where theres metal or the exposed parts? I rest my case.


Kinda like if you were Boxing, the tiger is the boxer with no such protection what so ever and the lion is the guy who has the luxery of wearing one of these...


If 2 pro boxers were contending for the heavy weight belt and one was allowed to wear one of those head gears, I'm sure that would be almost cheating, he would have a 50% better chance of winning being that it absorbs just about 60% of the blow, while the other person will feel the full impact every time, the same way the lions mane absorbs 60% of the blow while the tiger must feel just about every slash, swipe, bash, claw, tear and bites full power/infliction. lol

The same way a duel would commence in battle with two warriors wielding daggers, and one was allowed to wear one of these...


I'm sure a few shanks to the head would put you out of comission if you "wern't" wearing one of these.

But the mane is after all just hair, but very thick dense and long hair, so it will do many things that arn't really mentioned often or at all by tiger enthusiast who seem to either be ignorant and or consealing these facts anytime this discussion is in play, but we'll cover some facts on how durable the lions mane really is; the general rule of the lions mane protecting factors is, they will limit the amount of damage taken to the protected areas, Via limit the amount of cuts, scraps, slashes, bleeding of wounds ect...while the tiger doesn't have this luxery he must use speed an elusiveness to avoid such tragedys, but thats like saying a lion wont ever and cant ever land a blow to the head/neck and stomach/spinal areas of the tiger Huh? We all know thats impossible to emit. The tiger is not that fast, he's not the flash, in fact lions have blitzed cheetahs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWF5mvXKyY4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-wvA7fmUJ4

The cheetah is the fastest land animal alive; so regardless of the small margin of speed differentials in agility and dexterity between the lion and tiger it is not significant enough, since anything can happen in high pace rapid movements...which still Speeds of Cheetah>>>>>>Tiger, an a lion has caught numerous cheetahs even though by (Slight) ambush, the tourqe an acceleration the cheetah is capable in jetting too, is still far beyound that of the tiger; so in verse, the tiger doesn't really have any speed advantage because this is a fight not a race. The final truth is the lion can endure more punishment than the tiger can, which is envitable in a battle of similar attributed beings, both will eventualy get hit, but the toll will not be so similar since in the area that it counts to lead to a kill will leave the tiger the one suffering wounds that are fatal; having the tiger more suspect to bleeding to death.

Right then, lets get down to the facts:


Video proof #1 lions mane protects his neck

Depending how big 50-70% of swipe or bite is protected by the mane, as you can see the mane protects bites that can usually add up on a tiger, yet it has no effect on the lion in terms distraction of feeling the pain from hyperdermic-like needle/claws; the lion can completely focus on the attack, which in the big cat fight world, every bite counts…



Video proof #2 lions mane protects his neck

If it were another tiger or a maneless lion that first lunge should have been enough, since tigers are experts at killing even larger animals with a quick throat grab, but the lions mane is able to hault "multiple attempts" of a throat an neck grab.

[If its glitchy^, I'll find another one]


Video proof #3 lions mane protects his neck

You can see multiple attempts in the tiger trying to grab a hold of the lions head, but his fangs repeatively misses and is only getting mane...



Charles darwin:


~Charles Darwin is considered to be one of the most influential scientists of all time.


"The mane of the lion forms a good defence against the attacks of rival lions, the one danger to which he is liable; for the males, as Sir A. Smith informs me, engage in terrible battles, and a young lion dares not approach an old one. In 1857 a tiger at Bromwich broke into the cage of a lion and a fearful scene ensued: "the lion's mane saved his neck and head from 'being much injured'
http://books.google.com/books?id=...f6bGJAsOxgIgK&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ


Craig packer reinstate’s lion mane’s are for protecting




http://minnesota.publicradio.org/...ay/web/2011/11/13/lion-researcher
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/projects/2008/05/lions/

George B. Schaller


http://onwisconsin.uwalumni.com/features/a-voice-in-the-wilderness/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Schaller

Male lions are the only cats with manes. This collar of long, thick hair covers the head, except the face, and the neck down to the shoulders and chest. The mane makes the male look even bigger and stronger than he is. It also protects him during fights. The long, thick hair softens the blows of his foes.
Schaller, George B. World Book Encyclopedia. 2002 .
http://www.google.com/search?q=Ma...i=sKCzUZu7Os_0igKerIGYAQ&sa=N


Even Roman proske a well known tiger expert who fancys the tiger more and saved his friends and a tigers life by stabbing a lion in the face with a steel fork mentioned that the male lions mane is for protection...



Trevor Bale Tells Sarasota Herald-Tribune Mar 20, 1957



”The hairy mane the lion's throat, preventing the much-speedier tiger from killing the African cat during a battle and giving the lion the reputation of being "king.”

http://www.google.com/search?q=th...i=w4d0UpbzNefgiAKI1IDgAQ&sa=N


Kailash Sankhala Indian natrualist opinion on the mane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kailash_Sankhala


There is no direct evidence, but if we examine the probabilities in the case of a confrontation between the two some inferences can be drawn. In a fight would de unable to get close to the vital joint of a lion’s neck because of his thick mane, but the tiger is vulnerable to the lion. The film showed that the tiger was at an immediate disadvantage. Tigers use a throat grip as their primary means of killing and the lion's thick protective mane prevented the tiger gaining a hold on the throat joint. On the other hand, the tiger had no special protection, so was vulnerable to attack. In this fight, the tiger was killed. In any inter-species confrontation lions would also have the advantage of the who pride. But in my opinion a tiger is no match even for a single lion of equal strength.
~Tiger! The Story of the Indian Tiger, by Kailash Sankhala.

You see, Like Kailash stated, the tiger is vulnerable to a throat grab:


As a lion is more resliant because he has a protecting factor his mane as stated by:

John Varty:


"The manes on the male lions make them look larger and more fearsome. They protect the neck from blows from the opponent.
http://www.tigercanyons.co.za/newsletters68.htm

18 May 1996 by Dereck Joubert


http://www.nationalgeographic.com/explorers/bios/jouberts/

After spending some 25 000 hours studying lions in Botswana I have come across just three maneless lions, so they are as rare as David Featherbe records in the latest issue of New Scientist to arrive at our camp in Botswana (In Brief, 24 February, p 8).

When speculating about why male lions have manes you have left out the most important reason. When male lions attack each other they mostly rear up on their hind legs and slap out at each other's heads and necks. The neck and throat are vulnerable and a full-bodied mane acts as protection against blows.
Remember that it is not necessary and often not desirable in nature for a conflict to end in the death of the vanquished, so much of this fighting is for display, with the mane giving protection, and many of these battles for territory are won on psychological ...
http://www.newscientist.com/artic...0-letters--by-any-other-mane.html

lion’s mane protect’s male lion’s in combat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_FtEEFZq_s


Samantha Stephens

"The lions mane might not make a big difference, but it might be that crucial amount of difference."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK9etg51Do8

Lions: By Kathy Darling

"A hairy headdress makes its owner look larger and protects his head and neck in battle

http://books.google.com/books?id=...noATswIGAAg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwCDgU

George Conklin

The lion also is protected around the neck by the heavy mane, which is an advantage. There is one instance I remember where a full grown lion and tiger engaged in combat, by unforeseen chance of course. It was when the John O’ Brien Show had its winter quarters in Philadelphia and I was connected with it. “A lion and a tiger were in a compartment cage, with a partition between. In some manner this partition was battered down in the night and the two big fellows got together. They had probably been issuing challenges to each other and promising what they would do to one another if the chance came. When morning arrived we found the two in the lion’s cage, the tiger dead and the lion all chew and clawed to pieces, but still full of fight.”
~George Conklln, “Adventures With a Circus”

William Bridges Bronx zoo


"The thick mane around the lions throat offers a certain amount of protection and a tiger forced to fight a lion in his own den would fair badly"
http://www.google.com/search?q=Th...i=1NfiUs_9LZfnoASkjYCQCw&sa=N

If a female tigress, can get to a male tigers throat, it is even more so vulnerable to the lion, who will last longer and endure more than a tigress can before applying his own throat grab, while his mane protects his own:



http://www.kvia.com/news/Female-T...68/15246770/-/dsh9uv/-/index.html

Again, in a scruffle, the male lion would be near imprenetrable, since the mane aids him with via movement x struggle of equal and most of the times stronger physical strength to break clinches, as it would be confusing for a tiger/tigress to see the throat hidden behind the thick matting of mane, and this would be the result since the tiger has no such protection:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/12/117_36355.html


Lions: By Tammy Gagne

"It isn't just a lion's size that makes it look like royalty. Like everything else about a lion, its head is huge. Adult male lions have manes. This long, thick fur surrounds the animal's head and makes the lion look even larger than he is. A male lion's mane isn't just for looks. It also protects the lion's neck from the claws of other animals during fights.
http://books.google.com/books?id=...Yy7oQTJmIGgCw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBg


The Rambler (1939):


There is no doubt that the lion reigns as the king of beasts, says Terrell Jacobs of Barnes Brothers circus which opened The lion has a heavy thick mane that protects its throat. An attacking tiger goes for the throat of a foe but cannot bite much except hair when it grabs a lion so the lion has a big advantage...I have seen fights between lions and tigers and have arranged such fights in tarzan pictures and the lion is always the winner. A young lion that has not grown a mane might stand no more than an even chance a tiger but a full-maned lion has all the advantage," said Jacobs
http://www.google.com/search?q=trevor%20bale%20lion's%20mane%20site:news.google.com/newspapers&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&source=newspapers


Lions: By Sarah Albee

[i]Manes may look heavy, but they are mostly fluff. A mane can protect a lion's head and neck from bites and scratches during fights with other lions.

http://books.google.com/books?id=...Yy7oQTJmIGgCw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwCA

The Sun - Aug 14, 1935

Article titled:

Try To Look Cockeyed Lion In Eye? Not For Mr. Nelson



Mr. Nelson is the wild-animal trainer of the Hagenbeck-Wallace and orepaugh- Sells Circus...For seventeen years he has been socking lions & tigers on the proboscis... Mr. Nelson tickled the nose of Old Mom, an angry-looking lionessas with the point of a stick and jumped back as Old Mom, snarling enthusiastically, reached out through the cage to claw him" A short time before Mr. Nelson's twenty-four lions and tigers slid lithe-ly into their large central cage, there to snarl and roar and slap sharp- clawed paws at their trainer as he jumped them from pedestal to pedestal. Great Theory" For Some One Else SCARS ARE REMINDER Bert Nelson Also Discredits Belief That Tigers Can Vanquish Lords Of Jungle(Continued /rom Paffe 22) for their little while in the rings and the arena....You never know when one of these babies will go crazy on your hands," said Mr. Nelson. Tigers easier to train, too, he said. Lions Always Beat Tigers "I've seen lots of gang fights between lions and tigers-- we had a me this spring when we opened in Chicago," he asserted...The tiger always attacks the lion by rolling over on his back and going for the throat When he goes for the throat he runs into a mane two or three inches thick and the same mane extends all down ie underside of the lion's body.

Lion: By Louise Spilsbury

"a lion's mane protects it from bites to the throat"

http://books.google.com/books?id=...In+fights+with+other+Irons+a+lion's+mane+protects+it+from+bites+to+the+throat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AOLiUo3kJ4mCogTG2oHYCQ&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAA

What good is a lions mane?

It is a defensive weapon, protecting the King of beasts vulnerable throat and neck from claws and fangs of its enimies.

~The Milwaukee Sentinel - Mar 24, 1957
http://www.google.com/search?q=is...=ISO-8859-1&source=newspapers


Clyde beattys opinion on the lions mane

Not so with the lion who fights like a dog with only his front paws and teeth. He carries the fight to his opponent, centering the attack on the tiger's throat while his heavy mane protects his own throat. And with his extra weight in the forequarters, ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=...amp;ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html


Kruger parks opinion

http://www.krugerpark.co.za/faq-on-lion.html
The mane is also a means of protection to the face and neck during fights between male lions.

Mane even survives gernade explosion

A male lion's mane is designed to protect the animal from attacks from other lions. It apparently also works with hand grenades as well. Marjan's neck and chest were spared serious injury, but his face was badly mutilated by the blast.
http://www.lionlmb.org/lion/marjan.html

The most distinctive feature of the male lion is its mane, a collar of long, thick fur. An adolescent male's mane will begin to grow at 18 months, after which it will continue to grow and darken. A visual indicator of gender and power, the mane also serves to protect the lion's neck from other lions.
http://www.pbs.org/edens/etosha/lion.htm


Facts about lions

Their mane serves a number of purposes: a) it identifies him as a mature male to other lions, even at a distance b) it gives an appearance of increased size with little weight cost c) the condition of the mane conveys the level of health and vigour to female lions d) it can help protect the head and neck area in fights with other lions.
http://www.wildcatconservation.org/faq.shtml


"A lion's mane protects during fights— softening blows of his enemies"

~Daily News - May 2, 2003
http://www.google.com/search?q=A+...=ISO-8859-1&source=newspapers



Big Cats: And Other Animals:


The Atlas lion differs from other lions in that the male has a long, thick, dark mane that extends along the back and ... hairs of the mane protect the neck and throat from scratches and bites during fights
http://books.google.com/books?id=...-H8iwL994CABw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBw


The Virtues Unveiled

The male lion's mane, which increases with age, adds grandeur to this ferocious cat, and serves to visually intimidate other lions. It also protects the lion's throat against lethal bites during a fight. Allegorical (Greek, Allegoria) To say something ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=...miwKWvIDIDw&ved=0CCkQ6AEwATgK


No intruding lion is in any doubt that a lion territory is occupied. Maintaining territories involves a considerable amount of work, because they can be quite large. ln good lion habitat, such ... A lion's mane helps to protect his neck during fights. http://books.google.com/books?id=...-H8iwL994CABw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA


Antipredator Defenses in Birds and Mammals


If so, it is conceivable that a single male lion attacked by a pack of hyenas could reduce injury with the help of its mane.Manes protect males in interaspecific in other species. It may additionally confer advantages by limiting wounding in the neck region.
~Timothy M. Caro
http://wfcb.ucdavis.edu/people/faculty/caro.php


Endangered Wildlife and Plants of the World: Igu-man

Coloration can vary widely from a light buff and silvery gray to yellowish red and golden brown. The male has a distinctive mane that apparently protects the neck when lions fight one another.

Again the lions mane can be by-passed to an extent the same way people with bullet proof vest have died from the impact or having the bullet go threw, the mane still provides the lion with 4 major things in a fight with a tiger.


Other documented cases where the mane actually protected the lion from a tiger:

Documented account the mane protected a lion in a fight

Lion’s mane save’s him from tiger’s throat attempt, an also aidded the tiger to release due to breaking his breathing pattern.



Another real live account where the mane aided the lion against a tiger

"The result was that soon the tiger's claws were tangled in the greasy, heavy, armor-like mane of the lion — and useless. Whike King edward ripped at the foe until  dan sank to the cage floor, a stricken, gasping disembowelled thing"
http://books.google.com/books?id=...he+result+was+that+soon+the+tiger's+claws+were+tangled+in+the+greasy,+heavy,+armor-like+mane+of+the+lion+%E2%80%94+and+useless&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8J6zUc-INePkiAKTu4GwCw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA


So what is in place so far is:

1.)
The lions mane can make the tiger miss-judge the distance to get to the throat in high pace movements, catching air or only hair. (Confirmed by over videos 20 via everland and other documataries)

2.)
It can suphocate the tigers breathing patterns, forcing him to let go to breath or get the clumps of long stands up to 2 feet, thick and dense hair out of his mouth on each attempt for a head/neck/throat bite. (Confirmed by testimonials of eye-witneses)

3.)
The mane which some grow so big it increases his mass 2 folds which can intimidate the tiger making the tiger think he's fighting a bigger foe, which breaks the bravery/willpower/determination an confidence to win, being that lions are already the same masses of any large bengal or siberian the lion is on average heavier by over 60% of the panthera tigris genus, so the mane + the extra weight and being taller, the tiger will think hes fighting a grizzly bear. (Confirmed by over 20 videos books and abstracts)

4.)
It can in-tangle the tigers claws, giving the lion enough time to disembowl the tiger. (Confirmed by a account in C.C's menagerie)

5.)
The lions mane depending how large, can absorb 50-70% of the blow the same way a warrior or knight wears a helmet; or a boxer wears a head gear. Undisputed to any tiger sub-species or any big cat, the Barbary lion was also pitted with the average asiatic, to african an even persian lion an because of the Barbary lion having the largest an thickest among manes; it complimented him to one of the reasons he never lost a fight. In that same fashion lions of today who are lucky to grow battle manes which are larger and extend down to the belly...can also protect against dissembowling moves. (Confirmed by over 10 testimonials by Biologist, Zoologist and Scientist)

A battle mane lion has a very thick an dense mane that is bigger than your average african lion's, that covers sometimes more than 50% of the lion's body, that allows male lions to not only have head mane's but belly mane's as well. There is alot of speculation's from sub-speice's, testosterone, weather an genes, of how very few grow battle manes, inconclusive as for whats the exact facts for now, but what was the reason given the title of battle mane... was because any animal a battle maned lion when up against the lion usually won, even if that lion was a poor fighter his mane absorbed 70% of blow's that usually gassed the other opponent out on not being able to get to the main kill spots, the throat an belly for disembowling. Which in return the lion doesn't have to work as hard, an I know a fair share of lion's account's losing to tiger's around 20 at best though as I pointed out in my older post... most are of female lion's being killed by male tigers an the males are topped off at 8 so far, an the 8 have mostly very young under age lion's that are below the age of growing a full mane, along with a discription of the health of the lions status not being detailed enough or any photograph showing the size of its mane. An I am not aware of 1 single account through out history of a tiger killing a lion with a battle mane all on his own without intervention of some sort...not 1.


There are few lion's of today that resemble the Barbary lion's who are now exticnt...


{The Un-beatable Battle mane lion’s}

Look it that mane! Give this lion a extra hundred pounds in weight and make his mane a little more thicker, denser and puffier and you got your self a Barbary lion....




Its crazy to think about how and why the lion was granted such a weapon of defence, I mean look at the location he lives in, you'd think cats that live in artic weather would more so grow a mane, being it should keep them warmer than without one, the lion lives in africa probably the most hottest place on earth...So what gives? Something is surely unique about the mane and only one cat has it, sure others have spots, one other has stripes and others are plain, but he's the only cat that has a mane, and social...there cant be a coincidence...



It is due to his social nature of always fighting, nature granted him with a formidable defense of evolving that way. Lions would rarely go for the neck and throat area on large maned lions because they know its for protection but when they do its evident even lions cant bypass there gift of war attribute, there manes protects them so well that it almost always has to be a pro-longed fight haiving attempt after attempt of a death grip not succeed...



Look at that mane! It increases his mass almost by 2x fold, would a 500 pound tiger take on a 700 pound tiger by just of 'will' or just for the cause? Not unless hes suicidal. The fact is the mane gives him an appearence of being much larger than he really is, which the average mane increases the lions mass at 35%, but a battle mane would increase his mass almost 40-60% so it will make a 500 pound lion appear to look like hes 700 pounds...



Some call it Demonic, some call it Majestic, some are Jealous of it, some Idlelize it...we can all agree that the lions mane can rightfully be heir to a crown for a King...if anything, some say the mane resembles a crown, some state that the lions mane was the entire reason of crafting crowns...surely lions were alive way before some human ornament was cultivated to wear upoun the head.


This is just the beggining of proving that the lions mane is an all purpose battle attribute, as time goes along, I'll high-light and provide more sources and of course more video proof that a tiger will almost always have some major problems trying to get pass the lions mane first...grabing and hanging on, tangling the tigers claws subdueing the lion momentarly is pretty easy...but keeping him in that posistion....Not so easy.

I am 110% confident no tiger can kill a lion with a battle mane, an title of the Pride ruler in combined forces of those attributes together, would make what I think would be.....

The Ultimate Fighter.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've noticed the size of the Lions head is much larger than a Tigers. I'm guessing the bite force would be higher for the Lion. Very good work Prime.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just curious prime are you a scientist or researcher by trade ? You sure seem to know a lot about animals.

I agree with you about the APT being pound for pound one of the gamest breeds. But no way they can tangle with  Tibetan Mastiffs, English Mastiffs, Tolsas, etc.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magic Joe wrote:
Congrats Prime on making this the best thread of it's kind in all the net. I'm seeing a lot of new visitor's . Props to you man !


Thanks again mate, we'll get a conclusion a little down the line I'm sure, but I think this amount is still what should be the Basics, I will try and broadin the catagories and variety as well a bit later....

Adding in better details on each occaison, getting links to every single source for credability, adding in a whole heap of other sources to each catagorie. And of course most importantly Organize them thoroughly, thats the biggest problem when you have around 500 sources, repeating the same information can come in accidently, but with things in chronolgical order can almost eliminate that problem, than more easly you can just analyze its content if the same quotas are used by different people an it would be best to just post all of them in small titled alibies so no repeating is done and trying to conseal information just because you want to act like you have alot of data... when you dont.

That just shows people dont care for the debate, they dont care for the right answer other than the one they chosed to win, they dont care in passing on creditable information to the next generation, more so just shows they wanna go by properganda on there own bias points of views.

When I was on Yuku I enjoyed members like Leofwin and Boldchamps opinions, they actually favored the tiger before doing there research, an swicthed sides upoun creditbale information...and even when I posted faulty information they corrected me and showed me the true content or if I repeated sopmething they pointed it out that it was the same occaision, so thats a plus, I too dont want to post any faulty, wrong, false or bad information for I'am trying to improve the formalitys of educational purposes, but I wouldent mind there help like Dalen them, I constantly asked them before to see if they spot anything shaddy or sketchy, because my computer is breaking down so badly that not all the pages content pops up anymore, so I have to present only what I see, I usually feel like I'm missing peices of the puzzle, so again I only wanna format things for educational purposes, not like sites like, Indragit...Yuku-animal-vs animal... yuku untamed....Jackjacksonj...and others that are beyound false and faulty its like they think the average person is a retard, and cant see that they repeated 1 occaision 100 times...XD XD XD I mean can you imagine that in schools? Pfwaah aha haa ha, thats like a teacher telling you..

Teacher: 1 + 1=11

Student: But my uncle said 1 + 1 is =2..???

Teacher: No your uncle is wrong look at the number 1, than put another 1 next to it....its Eleven!... see!

XD XD XD XD

I go by the life style of Libra="The Balance", so I have no problem matching what ever fabrication they are spewing out like on AVA, I seen a google pin up showing that mook on AVA said he has 1,000 sources proving that tigers kill lions XD XD XD Yeah right. Huh! Thats the same dumbass that wrote the 367 bullshit lies on jackjacksonj site, and evidently on page 5 on this forum (I just exploited) he dident even have 50 different sources, so now hes claiming 1,000? XD XD First his 367 lie got me to finding what I have now which is over 367 sources proving that lions are the only ones to be able to state that claim of what he said, but if this scitsofranic loser wants to ride that lie as well, then looks like I got a new goal # to hit, when I get another computer I'll get that amount no problem, and ohhh boy, talk about all the time he waste defending what he knows is  100% manipulated lies, he could have actually looked around instead of repeating the same occaision an number lableing as a different account, which that just shows you lies can only get you so far, for when lies conjure and manifest, what do lies have to keep doing???
Keep lie-ing

Thats why he cant even hold a single user name on the yuku forums, he has around 30 different member names, because he dosent know what the Fuck hes talking about already, hes so far down the rabbit hole he belives his own lies to be true, theres no coming back for that guy, and theres no bigger liar, no pathetic person, no big time loser more than this guy who holds all the merits of a coward in true fashion, a reincarnation of judith if you may Huh! But hes a goner no matter what already, even the good side of the yuku team constantly exploit him.

What I find funny is that they always say that Everland shows proof that tigers dominate lions, then when they show the video of them fighting on youtube it is always spliced and edited only showing the ferocity=(Which is defence/lashing back) and some tigers landed a few good hits, while mostly all of its content is poluted with occaisions of lions having more agression=(Bringing the fight/the one persuing the attack), I mean how can you say that tigers dominated lions In Everland when in every catagorie of...

-Whos more agressive
-Who got harder hits in
-Who submits the other more
-Who was more willing to fight
-Who had more fighting skills
-Who had more durability

shows the lion had more quanity and quality...

Lioness submits an chases tiger out of her area…


2 lions call out 2 tigers and tigers constantly flees…


Lioness submits male tiger


Lioness submits male tiger


Lions have stronger strikes


Male lion beats up tiger and tiger runs away

(Prime example in how big the lion looks with a battle mane=40% increase in mass, making him appear to dwarf a tiger)

Female lion beats up tiger and tiger submits


Huh? I thought they said tigers dominated in everland, if I can show just these (small amounts), that disputes that tigers Dominated because dominated is only a one way thing I shouldent have been able to produce these if tigers truley dominated everland, these small gifs show that the lions show equal to even greater game than tigers at Everland youngins province.

And look whos still stalking, its Scholzpdx
still stalking weirdo?

Aww here...just for you...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE4OMnvFDOU

XD

XD

XD


And when lies linger and cloud the minds of the unbeknownst its only a stall, a pro-longing untill the truth arives, for where there are lies, the truth in time will rise, you cant hide the truth forever, so rise above the lies and be honest to thy self.


Alohas!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey bud check this one out, I just found it a few minutes ago, its a french peice, and the details show the tiger with a grasp on the lions mane, and the lion looks to be dissembowling the tiger...

http://www.artfinding.com/Auction...0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0/17590.html

Thats intresting to note that lions and tigers were heavly pitted in spanish arenas accompined by royal french-men in the late 18th and early 19th century, not much is heard of lions and tigers fighting each other more so just the bulls, but a few are surface-ing of accounts where they pitted lions and tigers, it seems it was pretty close, looks to be a few lion victorys and a few tiger ones too of the french and spanish mixture of historical significance.

I'd favor the lion in most ocaisions against the norm, but a spanish fighting bull or just fighting bull is just way out of his league in terms one on one in the arena, that goes the same to tigers vs bulls and bears vs bulls, theres a few where they all 3 won against the bull, but comparing numbers on who averagely won, its by far the bull. The only time the big 3 won, is where it was programed in there favor and or the bull wasent mature, stated in the context it self.

As for this art^ the tiger biteing the lions mane, doesent really accumilate anything much in comparision to what they are portraying for agian, anyone with knowledge of the lions mane capabilitys should know that it already has been proven via videos, that the lions mane shields most of the tigers attacks...

Lions mane protects the lions head and neck…






Thats still hilarious that now Jackjacksonj is stalking this forum too, just seen a pop up saying...The lies of prime (Lions vs tiger) the biggest lie on the internet....XD XD XD Hmmmm? Could it be that since I went into clean detail exploiting him on the pass page on this forum with my title as...The biggest lie in History, could there be a coincidence??? XD XD Looks like hes having a mental break down, and trying to punch in his last ticket. Now everything to him must be titled the biggest lie, just to make him feel less in-secure Haah ha haa, honestly this guy ha haa...hes trying to just type out the word fake (with no proof to dispute it) and wants people to belive him? How would that work out in court, your honor we have evidence its fake, they then present a peice of paper that says fake and wants the Judge to take them serious? Pfwa ha ha haaah ahhhh XD XD XE. Unlike him, I showed exactly how he repeated his accounts and how he faked them (with the proof).

Hes really losing it now, change-ing his stories from left to right, and whats funny is he types like hes adressing me, like some how in his delusional mind he thinks I'm parrying away from him, lol he cant even be on the same forum as me for just an hour, he has to hide behind animal-vs-animal.com because he knows I'm banned from there and cant counter his joke of a list. Its not even a .00001 percent worry in debating with that homo for anybody at this point, I can exploit everything he has in 1-3 post showing all his fake crap and trash list of repeats and edited info. He's even still talking to himself and complimenting himself even more now, OMFG He's retarded and pathetic HAA HAA HA HA! Because he needs to convince people (that dosent know the situation) the data is turning a new era of credability. He cant on his mothers life... ever put his list in Chronological order and in catagorie form because it will show they are all "repeating the same occaisions", XD XD XD While from now on...all my info will start taking on the form of chronolgical order, that way its unbreakable in terms quanity. I cant even view his content fully, only what googles front page states, which again its just a laugh and a half to just hear him banging his head on concrete.

I havent even puttin any real search into this subject yet, I cant, this computer is too out-dated, once I get another one then yessah! And Still just what I have now dwarfs his 9 year search...9 years of lying to the world....of his copying indragets info and multiplying all the same occaisions by using different sources or different formatings...I still got more in 1/1000ths the amount of time 7x fold more than what he has, HA HA HAAA HAA HA! Look at that ^ a new historical artifact just from a minutes worth searching, thats just a little above 80 now I have portraying a lion defeating a tiger from 7 different continents with a new computer I'm confident I can hit 200 with ease, while he has only 5, and not all 5 show a tiger beating a lion, its so obvious one that he has is what I saw before he put it up, a tiger and lion laying next to each other (in harmony XD) and claims...... you see in rome tigers always won, its ridculous how he scrapped up  having a Cenitor in his histroical artifact and wants to claim mines is fictional?

XD,

and immideatly trys to squeeze in that all mines are british XD XD (when I proved majority werent) Saying idiotic shit, like the roman empire fell already and rome was gone so they dont count...HA AAHH HA HA, pathetic, yet the sites I got them from still remains and says Roman empire, its also the location that counts as well, yet he then contradicts him self at every turn, he just stated (because I exploited his list of everyone quoteing martial) that martial is the only true one, yet still goes on to naming others like sunquist. XD XD. Yet this piss drinking looney, trys to act like he has any knowledge of roman history and whined like a baby trying to dispute Histroians and Theologians, natives an so on...who studyed there history almost all there lives with degrees. XD

Martials was a poem, thats it. There are literally hundreds of those favoring the lion over the tiger in every empire that had them, so since he wants to cling to a half ass poem (thats been exploited to have been sabotaged), then I dont see why any other form of poem or fable cant be counted too. He claims people like me and other members like Dalen, Bold champ and many others are bashing tigers, Huh! None of us has ever insulted the tiger in any way we compliment tigers at every stance point provided...what hes doing lying on behalf of the tiger is the hugest insult to tigers.... I only insulted his (Jackjacksonjs) way of how he repeated shit like 1 account over a 100 times and lied that he had 367 when he hasent even 50, yet on the other hand that peice of shit loser degrades the lion every single chance he gets, he makes whole threads calling lions every name in the book and thinks hes justifying himself by calling others bashers with no proof? Pfft, hes just a waste of air, I'd love to strangle it out of him or just kick his front teeth in, that would be fair.... and what most would think the right thing to do, well when I say most, I mean other than his 30 user names he floods the yuku forums with...XD XD XD.




But no worrys mate, I'll organize everything better later and format them in better details, so I'll just show another fast implimentation of how there status stacks up, I figure I do this on this page too that way people can get a better idea of tiger and lions masses with that ^ small amount of circus size comparisons  I showed in my other post for now, (which I'll probably get hundreds more later)....

Why the tiger would normally fear the lion in combat.

If we study the general basis in lions and tigers “mass”, it can help us better understand why the tiger would normally fear the lion…

The answer?

Because the lion averagly looks bigger in size. Its in the nerva system to always be natrually intimidated by a bigger object/oppnonent akin to your self. Look at leopards, they can kill animals that out-weigh lions almost by 2 folds and have had a vast amount of history of attacking and killing gorillas, so why isint there an abundentcy of accounts of male leopards killing or even just attempting to persue a male lion in the wild, even by ambush? Fear, a tiger seeing a lion is like a tiger facing another tiger that’s 20-35% larger than himself, he will be intimidated to just about fearing him because the lions mane makes him appear bigger than he really is, other animals usually show fear to tigers which gives the tiger justifications to proceed further and attack, not so much with lions who have the same weopanary, physiology and temperment, in other words when flesh is stripped to the muscle of both, they are almost anatomically the same cat.

But why would either or have a distinct advantage if they are such the same in temperment? There social behavior and slight differentials in anatomy says alot.

A lions "mane" will make him appear 20% larger than a lion "with no mane" at equal weights of 500 pounds, so a lion with a mane will look 600 pounds to a 500 pound lion or 100 pounds hevier than a non-maned lion by 20%mass= Adding on (Visually) 100 pounds of Mass. While a tiger compared to a tiger will still be 5/5th or 500 pounds at equal weights, meaning you wont be able to tell any difference in comparing two tigers of equal weights…because they lack anything/ornament or anatomy that increases there mass, the only way the tigers mass (Visually) can increase by 20% is if you add on a 100 pounds which is 1/5th of his over all weight or 100/500-Pounds.

So…

In comparing a 500 pound lion (with no mane) with a 500 pound tiger (Visually) they both will look the same size and almost identical, other than the tiger will look slightly longer while the lion slightly taller.

But, if you compare a 500 pound lion (with a mane) to a 500 pound tiger, the lion will look most of the time 100 pounds hevier=20% 1/5th of a 500 pound lions mass.

So since most data on the subject has no source, credability, link to anyone who actually weighed the combatants that fought on videos or historical accounts "Individualy" and gave there ages along with there whole over all status, and can confirm both of there statistics, then this formula…

Mass:

(Mane-less/500 Pound Lion=500 Pound Tiger‡Equaled % mass.)
(Maned/500 Pound Lion>500 Pound Tiger‡ L 20% more mass)
500 Pound tiger=Visual mass of 500 pounds
500 Pound (Maned) Lion=Visual mass of 600 pounds

L;M=600>T;M=500

This ^ proves that none of what people are saying is remotely near the truth, they are both (on the heavy end sub-peices of tigers) are equal weights and the lion just visually looks larger, just more of people whine-ing (Like jackjacksonj) and cant handle that lions pound for pound or lighter lions are beating up hevier (not to be confused with bigger) tigers, and 20% mass increased by the lions mane is only the average, lions manes can range from increasing his mass by 10-35% and even some of the biggest that topples the 40% range= The Barbary lion has a mane that covers not only his head but his belly as well (there are still some lions that resemble the barbary lions mane today) and is more large in mass by almost 2x fold than the average lions mane. So in reality comparing biggest to biggest in terms mass… even a lion at 550 pounds and a Barbary-like mane=40% increase in mass, will look larger than a 700 pound tiger, and that goes the same for traveling up the ladder a 650 pound B-Maned lion will look bigger than a 800 pound tiger, a 750 pound B-Maned lion will look bigger than a 900 pound tiger, and so on…so the lion at max will still visually look larger than the tiger at max which both topped off at a little above 1,000 pounds, so the lions mane still is 20% of his mass so by around 200/1000 pounds=20%… which is almost like comparing a full grown grizzly bear to a tiger in which compartment of comparison you catagorize in which still would’ent be any matter being the 800-1,000 pounders would be considered obese an would get killed more easly by a prime specimen range-ing from 500-700 pounds of either speices.

But since (African) lions and (Siberian) tigers are roughly the same "weights" on average, experts have too pointed out that in terms agressional attributes the tiger would more so fear the lion and run away…
Isabel Thomas says:

“The tiger would eventually run away, realizing that the ferocious lion would never give up”
http://books.google.com/books?id=...ov2qwGmhoHoDg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

This is also confirmed by a account observed by Elizabeth Marshall: Who states:

“Even the biggest of tigers feared male lions”

http://books.google.com/books?id=...cWdiALksoGgDg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA


Going back into why the tiger fears the lion more so the other way around can be rooted to my explaination of who has more fighting experince, (the lion). Because of his social pattern (which no other cat has) he is constantly kept game, he is consistantly through out his entire life fighting, so he will be more confident than the tiger who has only two main themes in his life to fight averagely. And probably the biggest factor of the lion being more of the one to persue the fight, attempt the first attack, being the agressor of the fight can be confirmed by there Social patterns (which again the lion is the only social cat speices) since in the lions mind he knows that if he gets hurt, his (Social/Pride) family will be there to help him recover, the tiger will never have this luxery being solitary which effects his mental state of mind, to only attaking if he is sure of him self, which there habitats provides a subsiquential aura of fighting as well, where a tiger will hardly (Visually see a tiger in a certain amout of radius, so his alertness tends to visualize a prey more than an advesary, while the lion lives in the open, he will have full visual confrimation in everything he must deal with which aids there understandng of how to persue an up-coming fight from a contender. So analyzing the mental states the tiger and the lion is in, can show and prove that the tiger has only a few reasons to attacking a lion.

Famed hunter Lord Amhmert


Who killed over 70 wild tigers and a hundreds of wilds lions, who observed there fighting capabilitys in the flesh, states:

”The lion is so powerful an animal as the tiger, but he fights much better. A tiger will make his attack, and then retire; but a lion never retreats; he fights until he is killed.”
http://books.google.com/books?id=...KuI2gX0mpjSBw&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA
http://topcareer.in/history-of-india/

But back to why each would have reason to attack the other…

Tigers reason’s:

-The element of surprise (which is what hes use too).
-Nerves of steel and a brave individual (Testosterone Season).
-Has no other choice (Cornered or Caged).
-Can visually see a weaker/smaller akin of him self (if the lion is small)


That’s only 4 main reasons why a male tiger would feel the need to attack a lion.

Lions Reasons:

-The element of surprise.
-Nerves of steel and a brave individual (Testosterone season).
-Has no other choice (Cornered or Caged).
-Can visually see a weaker/smaller akin of him self.
-Beknownst that his pride will nurse him back to health.
-Knows he Has a mane that will prevent any immediate serious damage.
-Is constantly exposed to fighting. (Making him use to it).
-Mentality of a protector. (Pride and Father figure)


That’s 8 main reasons why a lion would feel the need to attack a tiger.

That’s 2x more out weighing the reasons why a tiger would attack a lion, and that means there are negatives in why the tiger would fear the lion because the lion will be the one of the two who is more persistant in the fight…. Making the top reason why a tiger ultimately fears the male lion, the lion will keep attacking even if hes mortally wounded, where if a tiger is wounded he will most likely chose to flea given the oppertunity which can be backed with videos all the way to testimonials of animal experts who wittnessed this behavior status and even accounts on the tigers choosing to fight the female lion more, albiet there are more accounts of a male tiger attacking and killing a female lion or young male more than a full grown male lion..

Owner of lions and tigers, Marco peters: states…

1.~One on one a lion usually whips a tiger, twice he seen tigers win, it was the biggest tiger against the smallest lion…he wont take on the strongest lion, you know who he attacks? The little female.


2.~ John Vartys biggest male tiger named seato kills savanah the lioness.

3.~ Male tiger Kills lioness in Bangalore mysore.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-krEXhkQ...AAAANY/zbR9XftEbJk/s1600/viro.JPG

4.~The New York herald reported an accidental bout between a mature Bengal Tiger and a 2 year old Lion cub named Huerta. Zookeepers deemed the combat unequal, as Huerta was a nearly-maneless adolescent and his opponent, Rajah was an adult twice the cub's size. While Rajah succeeded in killing Huerta, he did not escape unscathed. The Tiger left the battle with lacerations along the back and neck, a missing ear, and only one eye.

5~.Perth W.A male tiger kills lioness
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7jB5c3z...AAAAARA/lx8IrWIPxTk/s1600/999.jpg

6.~Male tiger kills lioness in Milan 1953

and theres like 10 more accounts of male tigers attacking female and young males of 1-3 years old, not old enough to even have a full mane yet. So in comparision adding up all the tiger accounts (because some adult males have been killed by tigers too), but wage-ing the scale more casualties have been of Male Tigers persuing and attacking Female lions than males, which falls under one of the 4= 1/4 main reasons why a tiger would attack a lion which is "Mass", both younger lions wont have a mane, and females are generally smaller than males and dont have manes at all, when lions are mature males and have manes, being the same weight and alot larger looking is the main reason why a tiger fears the male lion. Of course there are accounts too of male lions killing female tigers, but if you compare the amount "Overall" in majority of the 120 accounts (newspaper documents) or so on hand, the lion has killed atleast 70% being males and 30% being females, while the tigers accounts of winning are of just the opposite of 70% being females and 30% being males, which theres less than 40 accounts total'd, on hand for the tiger winning. In general tigers have won only around 3/10ths the amount of times the lion has on hand in terms historical "documents", if we count historical "artifacts" as well, then its more like the lion has won 8/10's the amount of times out of around 250 documented fights so far.

Which experts who have worked with “both” mostly agree that tigers are afraid of lions like...

Clyde beatty: who stated…

”They’re afraid of the lions. Want no part of them”



Zoolgist observations as well...

{1882}

”These lions seemed to be of a somewhat different disposition from the tigers, more courageous”
http://books.google.com/books?id=...qiPigL62oCwBw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA

{1834}

“Another Indian sportsman-]- tells us, that the lion, though not so swift as the tiger, is generally stronger and more courageous.”
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=...lly+stronger+and+more+courageous.



Kesri singh a person who favors the tiger over the lion states:

“As a normal rule I should expect a lion to be more open and bold than a tiger”
http://books.google.com/books?id=...-kOuKAqfogegB&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ

who also stated…

“The lions always attacked first”
http://books.google.com/books?id=...pOun-iwLxsoEQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ

It is as plain as day ^ showing the ferocity of the tiger to lash out and protect him self, but the key note proven by Mr. Kesri Singh even though he favors the tiger in being stronger by comparing the smaller version of lions (asiatics) to (Bengals)... he makes it perfectly clear that the lion is more bold, and is the usual agressor.

Lions seem to start alot more fights than vice versa, and not every fight will be as Kersi singh claims, sometimes as he states one or two smacks, (isint enough) and it is then the tiger who submits...



Here again like above, another young male lion (small mane) is persistant in taking the fight to the much older tiger even the tiger bowing his head at the end in a sign of submission, while the lion wreaks more havok (Lions facial expression and body posture at the end=Like a boss)...


Which leads to the final analysis, there over all take on fighting in general, it is said the tiger has more genuine ferocity than a lion, (which seems to be true/It fits his life style) but ferocity can be implimented just the way I explained above^ the tiger will do what he can to avoid a fight until he has too or falls in the main 4 as I just showed, which tends to lead to and explosive fighter…being that he must dispatch his enimie quickly before any major harm is done to himself, so if a tiger feels the need to attack, he will attack with a blue flamed fury and give it all hes got in one massive wave of explosive fighting, leaping, bounding, using all four legs to grapple, some what of a panic'd fighter, unlike the lion who fights suttle/calmer an bides his time, percisly strike-ing in acts of accumilating a toll of rounds like a boxing match, the mane will be the benifical counter weight to hender, stupify and even make the tigers explosive feriocty his worst asset of using up all of his energy and stamina pre-maturely, not being able to land a death blow or grip early on accuratley enough. Comparing the two.. the lion will still will be more aggressive, more accustomed, more confident, more ready, more proned to the life style that he revolved around his entire life and.

Tiger‡Feriocty=Defensive
Lion‡Agressional=Offesive


So it goes as stated, the tiger will be more afraid to fight with a lion 2x more on average. Thats why we have more videos proving still today, again analyzing there social life styles can explain all on its own who would be more afraid of who.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad you're back Prime . I was starting to miss your informative post. This latest post looks to be very knowledgeable.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superb job Prime ! This has become my favorite thread ever in any forum. Before this thread I would have never given the Lion any wins vs. a Tiger but with the research and evidence you've brought to the table I see the errors in my judging these two cats.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who will have more stamina through there fighting tactics?

Lets speak theoritcally and hypothically here…lets give both combatants stamina guage’s of 100.

We’ll cover all the ways the tiger and lion fights, there defensive state, to there offensive state, his moves from jabs to bites and parrying/evading, tactics to accuratecy and power.

Tiger Stamina guage at the start of the fight=100

-Defense, Evading, Dodgeing, Parrying:

Tigers bounds in huge quanitys from side to side to all around.
(This pleets a lot of energy, and can leave room for error, in huge amounts of leaps you can land incorrectly, try fighting someone and in forms of dodge-ing, jump feet away at every parrying time, you’re sure to get tired faster instead of you could have just bob’d your head like a boxer.)

-10


-Tactics, Game plan:

Tigers are explosive fighters putting everything they got for a fast kill, using all four limbs they latch on to lions trying to get to his vulnerable spots which is protected by his heavy mane.
(Fighting someone that has a protecting factor will turn this assest against him, like trying to hit a person with a head gear on and thinking that can knock him out only using a jab, which would barley faze him let alone knock him out.

-25


-Strike-ing:

Tigers throw using two paws in rapid motion.
(Which the more punches thrown will plete your stamina faster. Any boxer will tell you this.)
-10


-Accuratecy:
Tigers have very poor accuratecy, almost every fight ever recorded they only land around 2/5; 2 out of 5 hits.
(Missing would pleet even more than landing because it throws off your balance)

1.)
One lands, and the rest misses…


2.)
All misses, the swipes are only hitting mane…


3.)
All misses, only nipping at the lions mane…


4.)
Misses all 5 swipes (only nipping the mane) and even jumps while striking...whats up with the jumping and striking like that? what was he going to accomplish, hes just pleteing energy, imagine a human fighter jumping around like that while punching, he'd look foolish like he dosent even know how to fight...


Clyde beatty statement, who’s wittnessed hundreds of tiger fights states that tigers miss a lot more than lions…
http://i277.photobucket.com/album...ion_2008/brentonlion/CIMG1313.jpg
-10


-Stance, Fighting Position, Posture:
Tigers stand on 2 legs when fighting.
(This cost more energy than fighting on 3 because tigers physiology are not like that of bears and apes/monkeys, tigers are very long 9-11 feet/ so standing on two legs must aquire a lot of there body weight focusing on balance which does 3 things.

1. It diminishes there out put power of there strikes.
2. It makes them focus more on balancing mentaly and physically.

3. It decreases there sustainability of there center gravity making it easyer to knock them over.

[If it wasent for that table, that tiger would have been completely knocked over]
-10


Lions Stamina guage at the start of the fight=100

-Defense, Evading, Dodgeing, Parrying:

Lions bob there heads from side to side to all around.
(which dosent cost as much energy as leaping.)

-5

-Tactics, Game plan:
Lions pleets much less energy bide-ing his stamina in the fighting game plan that consist of rounds.
Lions are calm and calculated fighters and more acustomed at fighting so they are more use to it, hunting condition-ing and fighting condition-ing are two different things, lions are the more practiced fighter so they will be specifically conditioned for fighting, tigers more so hunting. Which will allow the lion to last through the whole fight.
-20

-Strike-ing:
-Lions usually throw one paw, which exerts more power and use less energy than throwing 2 paws.

-5

-Accuratecy:
Lions have well place accuratcy being they use one paw at a tme, you can better hone in with one paw at a time, theoritcaly the same reason in aligning things or viewing things that need to be straightend, people close one eye to get a more vivd and focused sight of the object.
-5

-Stance, Fighting Position, Posture:
-Lions prefer to fighting standing in the 3 point stance when fighting which does 3 things…

1.It increases his strikes by generating more power using his other front paw as a anchor on the ground.

2.They can better aim with using percise pin point accuratecy.

3.It enhances there sense of gravity, this is the same reason in why sumo wrestlers and foot ball players take the 3 point stance before the call or the hike, the lion is low to the ground giving a better sustainability of gravity, where as tigers stand so high it is easyer to knowck them over than a lion.

-5


The fight will be in a series of rounds in the way the lion fights, so the only chance the tiger has in-corperated in how his usual tactics, he must absolutely always try and finish the lion quickly, if he cant he will be suspect to plete his stamina gauge, by the second or third round his gauge will be that of…

{Tiger: Stamina gauge=35}

{Lion: Stamina gauge=60}

Which then the lion would come in for the kill, and be much more efficent at it because the tiger would be then much more tired and has no means of any anatomy that will protect his neck, like the lions mane.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeing how the Tiger is native to India that is a very high remark from that man.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Face wrote:
Seeing how the Tiger is native to India that is a very high remark from that man.


Indeed, from what I got from national animals of Indias present an past implemations was the tiger was only Indias National animal from our era only about 30 years or so ago, an it was because that there native son
(the tiger) is on the verge of extinction...so I commend that reason, but its not over... theres still so much they can do to preserve the line of tigers, it will call for some sacraficeses, but it can be done with the proper modivation an careful planing.
-
But I was laughing at the fact that [wiki] has every leverage for the tiger, by nameing experts for the tiger (which they're wernt real experts) gives fales data upoun weights (with no graphs or sources) names death accounts of the tiger killing the lion, which a few arnt true (yet theres more for the lion) but dont make any effort to name any, and just about giving every kaka mimi fan base reffernces of there lame opinions that the tiger is bigger, faster, stronger smarter crap, thats repeated an repeated with no factual evidence to pro-claim anything of them state-ing that. But I'll try an high-light just a few I find really really funny about Wiki.
-
It says historically under the Roman times that the tiger always won an gestures a painting of a lion an tiger fighting in Pompeii...immdiatly after that says they bet more on the tiger...now the funny thing is, there is a picture of pompeii's {which it mentions}, but if they read it (which I dont think they did) they would have known that in that story of the tale of Pompeii, (the artifact) had the lion standing over a prostrate tiger, hears the whole story...

"Quote"

"Now," whispered Marcus, " the charm is broken ;" and at the same instant, the lion was seen bounding towards him with prodigious leaps. This time he swerved not as before from his course, and in an instant he was seen crouching quietly at the feet of the old man. A pause of astonishment held the spectators breathless for an instant; then "A miracle! a prodigy.!" burst from a thousand tongues, in every part of the amphitheatre.
The Emperor liked not this; and at a private signal from him a tiger was turned out upon the arena. The lion instantly recovered his fierceness—his loud, deep roar sounded like thunder—his mane bristled, and his eye flashed fire. The tiger came leaping towards them, but was instantly met by the ravenous lion. The contest was fierce, but it was short. The short snarl of the tiger was heard, mingling with the deep roar of the lion—now they appeared like two wrestlers erect, and closely embraced in their desperate struggles —and now rolling together upon the. sand, and half buried under the cloud that their struggles raised about them.

There was sudden leaping back and forth, as each tried to gain some advantage in a new attack. Gradually however the contest seemed becoming less violent; and as the cloud of sand subsided, the lion was seen standing over the prostrate tiger, his teeth buried in his throat, from which he was evidently draining the blood to satisfy his ravenous appetite; while the tiger, by the feebleness of his occasional struggles, which gradually became only convulsive efforts, and terminated in what appeared a mere spasmodic shiver of the limbs, showed how complete was the victory of his foe. The emperor would gladly have ordered fresh beasts to be turned in; but the clamor of the superstitious mob was so loud, that the emperor, who was unwilling to give offence to the people so soon upon his first visit, thought proper to consent. "It is the will of the gods—it is the will of the gods!" was shouted on every side. The Emperor yielded reluctantly to the will, not of the gods, but of the people, and the old man was removed unharmed.
The spectacle closed. The people rose—while the Emperor retired, and the confused hum and noise of a retiring crowd was heard.
http://books.google.com/books?pg=...e=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text
-
-
lol so I dont know why they bothered to post it without stating atleast the lion won (which they dident), when every one I seen link to wiki has stated the tiger always won in rome, you cannot present a win for the lion an state the tiger always won, thats called contradicting your self...you'll only be able to say the tiger won most of the time, or sometimes, not all the the time or every time, an the funny thing is, there is only one source that comes out of Rome itself, of credability...Martial peters, yet he only mentions one account, an he himself said for a tiger to win was unheard of after an before that occaision...so to my knowledge theres only one account...thats funny, I have over 20 accounts straight from its native languages of Latin, Greek, Roman an Italian writings even Jewsih, Iranian, Armenian, Pakistanian, al those who were under the Roman's empire , an they all claimed that the lion usually won with [Detailed] storys, like the Pompeii one, I have them on hand too, I think its about 23 different sources of different eras of occasions the lion had bested an killed the tiger in the Roman arenas an most of them stated words like usually the lion won, or the lion was the most dominant animal, or the lion was the usual victor, compared to there only 1 for the tiger that states it was unheard of in any era for a tiger to have won.
-
Now the second thing I find funny about [Wiki} is the weights an sizes...as if you read that part of my data, the tiger does not have a 300 pound advantage at max or at average, they are bascially the same sizes, they are [similar] you can dictionary the word similar, the only way for the tiger to by-pass (similar) is if the tiger had a significant amount of weight an mass...which he dosent, in fact by mass aiding the mane, the lion is the one that looks to be about bigger by dimensions, they both average 420 pounds, an at max they both can hit the 800-900 pound ranges.
-
The third thing about [Wiki] is that the accounts they posted like a male tiger killed a male lion in Coney island...hmm? Thats funny this one...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jG-8pDq...AAAOw/zfr6fk5qj3I/s1600/saddy.jpg
lol I seen over 5 (different) news paper archives on this exact occaision an none of them had anything saying that the lion died, only mentioning a fight where a tiger attcked a lion from behind, an only this article ^ they presented... had the writer give his opinion, of the lion "Might" have to be put down, an opinion nothing more, if he truley died, it would have been a head line for the article, yet all the archives that I read said nothing of a sort.

That means that wiki is illieterally false an B.S, actually lying on a bias missleading opinion...same goes with ankara, theres not one person I seen alibi ankara present any evidence of credability that showed the status of the lion, yet they boust out that it was a full grown male lion every single time, the funny thing is, that everyones sources say that it was in 2011, when it was not...it was in 2010 september 4th, an they had only 3 lions there 2 females an 1 [teen] male, so no matter how you cut it, it was not a full grown male, an theres 5 different storys, the one never presented, is that the lion an tiger had a scruffle, an the lion cut his throat on a broken fence...Hmm? So possibly no kill came directly from the tiger, which I'm still looking into finding ankaras zoo's it selfs email, so I can ask my self, which no one wants to do...but we'll see., when I get the email I'll ask.
-
The other thing I find funny about [Wiki] is there so call experts, one being John varty, now... before I expose an exploit his claim, I'll tell you something about this so call alibi, John vartys family for 4 genrations had a property owned land in africa of a "Game reserve" for having torist pay them an they take them out an shoot africas wild life, mainly lions...for trophys...an all he did all his life was try to introduce tigers into africa, which many before him have failed at, not 10's or 20's, but hundreds of times, the wild life of africa has claimed countless of "Imported tigers, thats why John varty had excavted a portion of his property using giant steel fences to keep out wild lions from killing his tigers. Now this mook John varty, also had a claim that lions will lose to tigers upoun his own experince, which he alibis who? Savanah, a "Female lioness", but the funny thing is, she was killed by John vartys [Biggest] ---->Male tiger...named Shyto, at 532 pounds I would too think a male tiger would kill a lioness that was raised with tigers an was only 140 Kg=280 pounds, wouldent you think? But why not a male lion? Huh! John varty is as Bias as it gets, wiki source says John varty stated that a lion is weaker an inferior to a tiger also because he has a weaker bite, an states a tiger can crunch open a turtle like nothing, but a lion cant because of inferior jaw power...Really???
Whats this then...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oibo8kjiwS0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoQtkUcopEI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7CUBYknjWE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2sMZa9KWBo
-
An the funny thing about John vartys B.s statement, is that because lions have weak jaw power to do so, lol theres a video of a cub ^ crunching open a turle a...cub...XD, so what the hell is he talking about, when your bias like that...you'd say anything...lol
-
You see bud...wiki is based upoun bull-crap simply because it can be eidted by anyone at any time, I wouldent even call it medicore, because more than half of its cites an reffernces has no credability or substance an is just plain out lying, an the fact that alot...I mean alot of people had told me they tryed to change the datamore so on factrual based aquireys, but wiki's staff refuses to do so, they now have it locked that way, an denys any ledigations of credable data that speaks for the lions side.....XD XD, oh well's, I guess you cant fix stupid.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't trust wiki with comic book stuff much less with zoology stuff.

Prime, I'm going to encourage you to post in this thread when ever you're not here.

http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/sutra10369.php#10369

It's the team's clubhouse.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wanted to add another implimation in how one sided this debate can be....

I'll go by use-ing the comercial use of this match up and source wiki...

Tigers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger

So you have...


The Bengal Tiger




Indochinese tiger



Malayan tiger



South-china tiger



Sumatran tiger




Siberian tiger



Then you have the...


Lions

African lion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion



Asiatic lion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_lion

So by pairing up hypotheticals, the matches (By data on hand) would  logically be...

Bout #1

-Asiatic lion vs Bengal Tiger=50/50
-Asiatic lion vs Indonisian Tiger=60/40
-Asiatic lion vs Malayan Tiger=70/30
-Asiatic lion vs Summtran Tiger=80/20
-Asiatic lion vs South china tiger=55/45
-Asiatic lion vs Siberian Tiger=40/60


Bout #2

-African lion vs Bengal Tiger=60/40
-African lion vs Indonisian Tiger=70/30
-African lion vs Malayan Tiger=80/20
-African lion vs Summtran Tiger=90/10
-African lion vs South china tiger 65/35
-African lion vs Siberian Tiger=50/50


So going by this statistics, would be...

Winner: 8/10 Fights=The Lion

You might wonder why did I give those numbers... which some would have it slightly different, right? Well of course everyone is entitled to there own opinions, but my opinions come from actual accounts and statistics which I have gaven a little later on this thread. Some would think that a Bengal being slightly heavier than a Asiatic lion would have it atleast 60/40 in favor of the Bengal, the fact is even asiatic lions average almost the same weights as Bengals on average through out all reigons not just the biggest but the average, and I based my opinion upoun the fact that there were 5 occaisons in the wild where they both met and fought on there own accord...and out of the five, four were stale mates and there was one occaison of a fight in Velar where the lion won and killed the tiger...so being that if its a hypothetical 1 on 1 the lion should have been gaven a 60/40 since he is the only one to have won a ocaison in the wild, but since Bengals can achive being slightly hevier in terms an individual status I am fine with giving it a 50/50 for now, until more data can be provided.

As for the lot of the tiger sub-speices, the fact is, most people right away gave the win for tigers because commercially it is emited that tigers are larger than lions, which is a under-stament and or not true...but as for the rest of the sub-speices excluding Siberians and Bengals if they are pitted with african and asiatic lions, I'm afraid exactly what people usually went by (which is only weight advantages), then it is irefutable to say the smaller end of tigers stand as fair game, it is most likely the lion will win because he has on a 100-200 pound weight advatage on average compared to the smaller end of sub-speices for the tiger...and at max probably 300-400 pounds, but the 800-1,000 pound lions shouldent be counted for they are abnormal and un-likely as game as a prime specimen.



In the size catagorie comparing Felis leo to Felis Tigris, lions are 20-80% larger in mass (On average); which would mean visualy the lion will look on average 100-400 pounds heavier; compliments of the lions mane when comparing them as a whole speices, in other words taking into account all the weights and sizes of every existing tiger (Wild & Captive) in terms actual weight figures lions are 50-200 pounds heavier of more than majority of the tiger sub-species 6/9 to be exact; who are the Malayin; Sumatran; Javan; Bali; Indo-chinese and South china tiger which more weight would mean the worth of alot more size/power which in terms transfers to there strikes strength, bite-ing/power and durability of being a much larger big cat all together. The fact that lions can rival the biggest sub-species bengals, caspians and siberians to a stand off, in the wild and if needed further comparisons of max potentials the lion has reached over 400Kg as well in captivity (the max weights for tigers as well,) because he is then fed a consistant diet as a solitary tiger would have more constant in the wild, shows there is no weight differential, and that lions weight factors fluctuate alot more in the wild because having a social and sharing diet that splits the consumption rates, but analyzing just the heavy ends in captivity can also show that lions are suspect to being the larger speices when comparing to tigers because even there fully extinct relatives has the lion with the larger sub-species by far; (P.Leo Atrox) The tallest cat to ever live, and second in weight only to The Saber tooth cat (Not related to tigers). Not to mention the dominant geno of (Males) holds genuine geno of being bigger imprinted and embeded on there crosses as well, by the simple fact that a male tiger mate-ing with a female tiger only gives another average sized cat/tiger in the next cycle, but if a male lion mates with a female tiger, the off springs becomes that of 2x the size of either parents, which more so patent's the male lions geno is superior to that of the male tigers in almost every way.

So lions in general are the bigger of the two speices (Lion /Tiger) of big cats.

In what the records show so far the biggest to smallest of tigers in order of the past 3 centurys worth should have there averages of...

-Siberian=490.lbs
-Hycranian=450.lbs
-Bengal=420.lbs
-Indo chinese=360.lbs
-South china=310.lbs
-Javan=280.lbs
-Malayin=260.lbs
-Sumatran=240.lbs
-Bali=210.lbs

Again like the first page, these are not pin point accurate but a rough estimate upoun what data is on hand so far, most records so far show that wikipedia has suspect to only including the heavy end of tigers for it was edited mainly by the same people who stated that tigers are averagely bigger than lions by 100 pounds on average and 300 pounds at max which is far from the truth, not to mention sites like wikipedia only cherry picked the heavy end and dosent include all the tigers to have been weighed, who most were 40-100 pounds lighter than the numbers of testimonials in other sources provided. Hence wikipedia states bengals average 520 pouds when over 200 male bengals has been weighed from well over 10 different zoologist, biologist hunters, and other alibies and stated the average weight of bengal tigers are only at 420 pounds rarley ever exceeding 440. So if they were cherry picked info for bengal tigers most likely the rest of the tiger sub-species have been too, so that would mean those tigers could very well be 20-100 pounds lighter than what wikipedia suggest.


And I am still doing research in determining the over all statistics on Siberian tigers vs African lions, (the heaviest of the breeds) since they both can weigh the same weights by a over all statistics, it would then be a unfair fight for the tiger since the lion has a mane, so I would gesture that a fair bout of a equaled term fight should be of a 550 pound lion vs a 650 pound tiger, which should make it at 50/50 in terms being fair, because at parity the lion has way to much advatages for a 1 on 1 being that he is...

-More Durable (His mane can suffocate the tigers breathing paterns; intimidate & have the tiger miss judge the distance when biting/striking and absorb the more than 50% of the attacks)
-Slightly stronger in strike-ing (Built bigger, larger; taller and broader in the frontal reigons)
-Has 7.5 out of 10 more fighting experince on average. (Being the only true social big cat)
-The lion has more Stamina. (Copeing with the hottest temputures on earth & must chase down there food in open grounds=longer runs)
-The same speeds in strike-ing (Tigers just appear faster because they throw in rapid motion while lions use one club at a time.)
-The lions fighting tactics is more suited for this fight. (Pro-longed fights will almost always favor the lion in stale-mating or winning)

Heres what a 650 pound tiger would scale up to against a 550 pound lion in my opinion...


That is why I think that parity is a bit unfair....so again, I would gesture giving the siberian tiger a 100 pound leverage in a fight with a african male lion with a full head of mane, so a 550 pound african lion vs a 650 pound Siberian tiger in my opinion would be 50/50.


Last edited by Silver Prime on Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:50 am; edited 29 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tigers are mainly solitary, but I did provide some cases on the past pages that tigers can an have hunted in mini prides an coaltions, yet still the tiger hasent much records of killing anything bigger than a guar consistantly. The fact in the matter is, no animal can lay claim on killing the biggest and most Dangerous prey items on land which is the Rhino, Giraffe, Hippo and Elephant. Hyenas and wolves have greater numbers than lions yet still no accounts of them killing em, lions are the only animals that can lay claim that they occaisonally to almost rutinely take down the biggest titans on earth. So in terms there survival an hunting "Feats" are also another factual implimation in why and how the lion got his title the...

King of the Beast



Proof that male lions can hunt alone without the pride

http://mysite.verizon.net/johnseidensticker/

~John Seidensticker, Ph.D., is a Senior Scientist at the Smithsonian's National Zoological Park in Washington, D.C.
"Male coalitions, usually composed of brothers, half-brothers, and cousins, fight other male coalitions for access to female prides.Both male and female lions can and do kill prey on their own but lion groups, especially female ones, also co-operate in hunting large prey"
http://books.google.com/books?id=...uegiQLP3oCwDQ&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA





http://www.wildcard.co.za/blog.htm?action=view-post&id=2022



"Park, George Schaller (1972) reported that an amazing 62% of all lion prey was made up of Cape buffalo, with 81% of this 62% being adult male buffalo. Buffalo-killing is also important to the lions of Kruger National Park, and studies here have shown, significantly, that male lions are not just frequent and successful hunters: they are also the lions that are best at killing buffalo (Funston et al. 1998)"
http://darrennaish.blogspot.com/2...lers-macropredation-in-lions.html

http://hoothollow.com/Foreign%20P...%20Photo%20Safari%20Brochure.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo4cGB0U4iQ
http://i55.tinypic.com/142hrb4.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-53xIYjk...eCZQYwljw/s1600/sept2011_1272.JPG
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_--uX6KP...AAiY/hwEoezMD7mg/s1600/Kill.4.jpg
http://www.leopardhills.com/blog/media/22/Lion_and_Buffalo.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYaLvI36kEk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoENHiZnIsc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8DeJGfZnRk

lone lion kills massive buffalo
http://www.wildwatch.com/sightings/lion-kill-6

What is our take on these type of events? Lions (male) can single handedly  with no help from the females; take down enormous size Buffalo's. What makes it an all impresive feat above the tigers kill; is that, they consist of kills that are in the open fields...so they must fight without ambush, meaning taking on the full awareness of the buffalo, full fighting capacity of the buffalo, unlike the tiger who uses thick bush/camoflauge to lay in a sneak attack that can have little to no resistance of a full on fight/struggle. Its is a solid testiment of comparing a stealth Ninja; to a superior fighting maniac Spartan. I highly dought the tiger would take on a water buffalo/guar in the open fields as lions do.


{Lions Predation on Hippos}


Not far from this pride another pride in Linyanti Botswana specializes in killing Hippo.
http://www.botswana.co.za/Botswan...ife_Behaviour-travel/feeding.html

Fourth hippo killed.
The five male lions coalition (Notch & sons) killed a Hippo near Rekero last night. I found them this morning feeding ont he hippo, though Notch himself had already eaten and was sleeping in the shade about a hundred metres for the carcass.
As the morning sun started getting hot, the lions left the carcass one by one untill only one was left and this one decided to guard the carcass from the Hyenas that were waiting around.
While watching this, some four Buffalo bulls came towards the carcass. They soon picked the scent of the lions and they started charing at two males that were sleeping in the bush, driving them away from the vicinity of the carcass, although Notch was spared since he was a bit further. The Buffaloes left breifely before coming back and started chasing the lions again around. This time they went upto the carcass and drove away the one that was watching over it, and drove them away including Notch.
After this drama which lasted half of the morning, the Buffaloes gave up and left the lions to continue with feast. This is the fourth Hippo we have seen recently killed by the five. It seems they are now tunring to the Hippos since there is not much else to hunt.
http://paul-kirui.blogspot.com/20...on-and-buffalo-drama-in-mara.html

lion have killed and fed
off three hippos this month
http://bushwarriors.org/2012/05/1...nors-camp-game-report-masai-mara/

Besides isolated cases of Hippo predation by Lions their main threat is from humans. That said there is a pride of Lions in northern Botswana that used to prey on Hippo regularly. The majority of Hippo / predator interaction is from Hippo defending their territories from roaming predators.
http://animalsversesanimals.yuku....d-Tiger-fight-info-request?page=7

Filmed in Botswana, from about 10 feet away from the lion. The lion had killed the hippo the night before. The hippo is belly up.
http://apis.videosurf.com/videos/hippo+kill+lion

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qIHmoaO...Es/cu3J3Lb5i54/s1600/DSCF1512.JPG  
http://m.casolaphoto.com/photos/wild-beasts/Lion%20and%20Hippo.jpg
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2661/4032167469_81b4a2b129_z.jpg?zz=1
http://bushwarriors.org/wp-conten...gtree-with-hippo-kill-300x225.jpg
http://images.photoresearchers.com/photos/preview/na/na1360.jpg
http://heleenvandeven.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/img_5483.jpg
http://www.casttv.com/video/90rg1...one-male-lion-kills-a-hippo-video
http://www.freemansafaris.com/Notch_hippo_2.jpg
http://books.google.com/books?id=...NigKPt4GAAw&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBDgK  

Whats our take on these as well? Lions are capable of taking on directly hippos, who by far dwarfs 95% of what the tiger kills on average; hippos can range from 4,000-9,000 pounds thats 2-3x heavier, larger and bigger then there guar the tiger rarely preys on, and the tiger dosent even target healthy bulls, they go after sickly, small; young and or dying old guar/buffalo. These feats alone show in true form who is the superior hunter, out matching the tiger in pure bravery, skill; will-power and lion heartedness.


{Lions Predation on Giraffes}



They are well known for hunting young white (or square lipped) rhino calves, there have been a few recorded sightings where this occurred. How they actually do this I cant say, but what an amazing, sad and horrifying thing to see. Only a couple of weeks ago, they killed a rhino and a giraffe in one day.
http://www.africam.com/wildlife/following_the_mapogo_pride?page=2
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FxkJDfW..._92u2_v4/s1600/lion_knp-0292m.jpg
http://lionguardians.org/new-lions-kill-giraffe

lone lions killing giraffes:

Sub Adult lion killed a giraffe:
http://lionguardians.wildlifedire.../03/05/lone-lion-kills-a-giraffe/
http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/9Mrdsb4rJyM/0.jpg
That ends the question if lone lions can kill giraffes, since it only took the power of a sub-adult lion to kill a bull giraffe, so larger more powerful males can replicate what was done.

More lone lions killing adult giraffes:
http://www.wildlife-pictures-online.com/lion_knp-0130.html
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/DSCN1086.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/mybs/image/108425803/original
http://www.desertlion.info/photos/2009/05/20/x10gc3.jpg
https://sphotos-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.ne...22_464220313593802_35441504_n.jpg
http://m3.i.pbase.com/o6/03/534603/1/147286133.YK7mIWpa._N6P9327.jpg
http://blogs.sacbee.com/photos/2010/08/safari-in-south-africa.html
http://www.bateleur-camp.co.za/ju...Strip-4-Leeu-&-Kameelperd.jpg
http://www.girafamania.com.br/introducao/inimigos_leao.html

Of course a feat the tiger can never accomplish being no giraffes are in the tigers teritory's, but as it stands the lion is documented single handedly killing and taking down some of the worlds largest game, either from the most heaviest, most battle suited; most largest in mass and most tallest, the lions feats and accomplishments reigns supreme an un-contested by any land predator.


{Lions Predation on Rhinos}





Dr. Mervyn Cowie witnessed:

Adult male rhino was injured by lions runs near humans to find protection.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Me...amp;spell=1&tbm=bks&tbo=1

Although not a direct quota, some say Cowie mentioned that it was a single lion that injured the male bull rhino, I will see if I can get a scan of Cowies quota for credability later to see if it was a single lion or multiple lions.

Lions kill yet another rhino!
Phinda's north pride has managed to kill their fourth white rhino in as many years. The prides dominant male, we believe him to be around 250kg , with the weight and power to accomplish such a feit. One of these kills was witnessed, and started out with the sub-adults chasing and almost "playing" with the rhino . When the dominant male got up and grabbed the rhino over its muzzle, the rest of the pride subsequently took interest and started to jump on the rhino's back, untill the animal was brought down. The male took half an hour to then suffocate the animal. Lets hope they don't start taking interest in our black rhino!!
http://www.wildwatch.com/sightings/lions-kill-yet-another-rhino    

Lions Kill White Rhino The coalition of male lions at Exeter has finally killed again, this after numerous failures earlier in the week. Amazingly, four of the six males killed a sub-adult White Rhino last night.
http://www.wildwatch.com/sightings/lions-kill-white-rhino  


Lions were seen moving away from rhinos which had deliberately advanced when they had become aware of the presence of the pride (Goddard 1967). Goddard further reported that, in August 1967, a sub-adult lion attempted to attack an 11 month old rhino calf. The mother was close at hand and engaged the lion. The lion bit the females hock and clawed its thigh but was gored twice by the rhino in the centre of the ribs and then in the centre of the neck followed by a blow through the base of the jaw that killed it.

A freshly killed, black rhino carcass was found with an adult male lion by Elliot (1987) in Umfolozi Game Reserve. There were signs of a struggle and well defined claw and tooth marks on the neck of the rhino which had a horn length of 18-20 cm making it probably two year old. It was concluded that there was strong circumstantial evidence that the lion had killed the rhino.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Lio...+and+its+potential...-a0268790518

The article offers information on the predation of the African Black Rhinoceros by lions and its effects on the population performance of the species. The decline of their population growth rate since 2009.
http://connection.ebscohost.com/c...ceros-potential-effect-management
lion’s kill 3 rhino’s in 1995
www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/pdf_files/117/1175858056.pdf


Young mature rhino was killed by a pride of lion near Lerai Forest. The rhino had been battered around its neck which was lacerated by lion claws; as there was no evidence on the ground of a fight or struggle I can only
http://www.google.com/search?q=ma...i=7UKPUv2qCo_voASB6ID4Ag&sa=N

On the other hand, the Swedish naturalist, Wahlberg, once had an opportunity of watching several lions attack a rhino. The fight was terrible, and finally the big beast succumbed to the aggressors.
http://www.google.com/search?q=On...i=AESPUpG4M5OFoQSVwIG4Bg&sa=N

Lions have been known in a few exceptional cases to attack and kill a rhino.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Li...i=AESPUpG4M5OFoQSVwIG4Bg&sa=N


http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm261/liontiger2424/82f27f9a.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w25/atrox_photo/rino3.jpg
http://www.backpackersjohannesbur...anesberg/pix/rhinolion12may05.jpg



{Lions Predations on Crocodiles}


http://lh3.ggpht.com/Treepol/SLfW...AAAAABMk/MqOmwhDmaWE/P1000699.JPG

http://biggame.iza-yoi.net/combat/cb03/lion-croc.jpg
http://books.google.com/books?id=...tDsigLuiIHABA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ
http://img.allvoices.com/thumbs/e.../480/70748467-three-lionesses.jpg

Of course a croc can steal the kill from the occsional lion if its a un-experinced female or a bunch of juvi lions, but a male lion wont take any biding from any lone croc...
http://www.wildwatch.com/sightings/croc-tried-to-still-lions-kill

King of the beast; shows yet again, no fear...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbm-P7jaa_c

{Lions Predations on Warthogs}

http://www.hoothollow.com/Dec%202...20Warthog%20Kill-060637%20RAW.jpg

{Lions Predations on Elephant’s}


Lion Predation on Elephants in the Savuti, Chobe National Park, Botswana

A pride of  lions killed one elephant every three days. Seven of eight elephants killed were between four and 11 years old, as deduced from molar teeth ageing, and this age group represented over half the kills recorded by Joubert ( 2006 )  
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.3377/004.044.0104?journalCode=afzo

The Lions of Savuti: Hunting with the Moon records something like 15 years of observations, and even in 1990 the Jouberts were estimating that about 20% of the Savuti lion's diet was made up of elephant.

http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodz...09/02/lions_as_macropredators.php  

Males amounted to 236 confirmed attempts versus 38 for females!). They adopted a special hunting style that they use for other dangerous large prey animals, attacking from the back by ambush. And during all these hunts (which totaled 74 kills out of 323 attempts) only one lion was confirmed injured.

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/revie...lion_elephant_predation_2006.html  

The two Lionesses had just brought down an elephant cow of approximately ten years old.
http://lionprides.files.wordpress...ionelephant14.jpg?w=300&h=199

~Funston P. J Mills M. G. L. Biggs H.C & Richardson P.R.K 1998 Hunting by male lions: Ecological influences and socioecological Patterson, B.D 2004
The Lions of Tsavo: Exploring the Legacy of Africa's Notorious Man-Eaters McGraw-Hill, New York.

~Schaller G. 1972 The Serengeti Lion University of Chicago Press Chicago.
http://darrennaish.blogspot.com/2...lers-macropredation-in-lions.html
http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodz...09/02/lions_as_macropredators.php  

One thing is clear, the lion or pride has no problem taking down elephants age 4-15 in front of healthy bulls or cows, also. Hunts were less commonly attempted on calves, the same applies to rhinos.


http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_73/1153823815gDuR44.jpg
http://www.alovelyworld.com/webnamib/gimage/nam029.jpg
http://images.travelpod.com/tw_sl...on-eating-the-elephant-kasane.jpg
http://ih2.redbubble.net/work.222...075,f.lion-eating-an-elephant.jpg
http://images.travelpod.com/tw_sl...on-eating-the-elephant-kasane.jpg

Lions rarely prey on elephants. Botswana's Savuti lions, however, switch to preying on elephants during the late dry season (August-November), and the frequency of this has increased in the last two decades (1985–2005). An opportunity to document this phenomenon was made possible with infrared viewing and filming equipment. A pride of 30 lions killed one elephant every three days. Seven of eight elephants killed were between four and 11 years old, as deduced from molar teeth ageing, and this age group represented over half the kills recorded by Joubert ( 2006 ). It is suggested that this weaned, maternally less dependent age class, may be more vulnerable to lion predation. Lions prey on elephants since the density of conventional ungulate prey is reduced as a result of an annual migration, and artificial water provisioning has prompted an increasingly sedentary population of elephants. Notes are presented on the lion's behaviour in hunting elephants and the evolutionary significance of this.
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.3377/004.044.0104?journalCode=afzo

Here’s a site that has account’s pass 200 of lion’s killing elephant’s account’s.

http://www.perfectafrica.com/img/...male-lions-with-elephant-kill.jpg

http://www.bohlaletours.co.za/cms...ill%201%20Lion%20June2002.JPG.jpg
http://www.wholesale-prints.net/MAA0874/MAA0874392.jpg


{Lions Competition with Leopards}


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-fRSa2Sqt4

This could be the same leopard that survived the 4 on 1 scenrio on youtube, killed now by a single lioness...
http://www.wildwatch.com/sightings/the-legend-is-dead

http://articles.timesofindia.indi...male-leopard-khambha-taluka-lions

http://www.krugerpark.co.za/kruge...eopard-killed-by-lions-19188.html

When pure power comes into play...

"After about ten minutes, the leopard stood up and walked away, then turned, made some really deep growls and charged the lioness. In a cloud of dust, the lioness sprang over the carcass and wrestled the leopard to the ground, and pinned him there until he calmed down. Once calm, and fully submissive, the lioness casually walked back to the carcass and continued to eat. The leopard, thankful to be alive, bolted out of the sighting!"
http://www.wilderness-safaris.com...news_detail.jsp?newsItem_id=25867


{Lions Competition with Hyena}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUCxL3GHTIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHDeNjwntKM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoNmQX09rX0


What was about to happen was unbelievable and a once in a lifetime sighting. The first Lioness dashed in and went for the carcass. With brute force and unbelievable power she swatted one Hyena off the carcass. She grabbed the left over meat and hastily moved into some thicker vegetation. The Hyena saw what was coming and took the opportunity to make himself scarce. His two friends were not that lucky and before they could realise what was happening the remaining three Lionesses attacked them.

The second Lioness grabbed one Hyena by the scruff of the neck and started shaking it about as if it was a rag doll. She dropped it to the ground and immediately went for the jugular vein. She kept the Hyena pinned to the ground with one paw while slowly squeezing the life from it. The other Hyena saw what was happening and tried to flee but was not quick enough. The third Lioness got hold of her and latched onto her back driving her canines into the spine of the Hyena. This was accompanied by a blooding-curdling howl and the Hyena, unlike her companion, tried to defend herself by snapping at the Lioness. The Lioness retaliated and had another go at the Hyena – this time with more force and direction. Blood and fur were flying all over the place and once again the powerful cat emerged the victor.
http://www.sabisabi.com/safaris/ranger/2832/eternal-enemies




{Lions Competition with Cheetahs}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWF5mvXKyY4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-wvA7fmUJ4



Individual Biologist census:


Yet lions seems to be observed by Ph.D Biologist Pienarr as almost undisputed entirely:

Biologist Sukuza kruger national park:

During the period under discussion lions were reported to have killed 39 hyenas, 6 leopards, 2 cheetahs, 12 jakals, 2 civet cats, 2 honey badgers, 1 caracal and two crocodiles....warthogs that have taken refuge under holes, sometimes whole families are elimanated in this manner...october 1965 lions attacked a full-grown adult white rhino bull, introduced into natal, the lions mauled him so badly he had to be destroyed...obeservers such as wahlberg and taberer of lions attacking and killing full grown black rhinos in east africa...It is well known that lions frequently prey on young and even adult hippoptami in areas where these beasts are particularly numerous.

www.koedoe.co.za/index.php/koedoe/article/download/753/836-

It appears in this census^, lions have
killed every single animal you could possibly name in africa, from porcupines, kudu, giraffes, hyena, crocdiles, buffalo, rhino, elephant and more...attributed and earned through his trials and tribulation to have killed and dominated every living speices in his Kingdom, the lion Panthera Leo, rightly so; has earned his title as the....


King of the beast


Now why is it that the tiger is solitary and the lion chooses to form groups called prides? Its because the tigers habitat an prey its self are in smaller magnitudes which a kill can only feed a certain quanity, there prey are in smaller groups an are smaller in size, this is why the tiger has adapted more to stealth, because jungle an forest settings are thicker so pack hunters are fewer. Lions simply being large must consume more than the leopard and cheetah so they must target larger prey so tactically an intelictually they target animals as big as Elephants which rutinely requires help not to mention being they are in direct competition with herds and migrations so actually herds such as buffaloes, elephants an other large group of animals kill lions more than vice versa in terms over all amount of agressional migrating from cubs all the way to adults, an there animals in jungle settings like elephants, rhinos an hippos unlike the tigers habitat kin of animal groups are in smaller sizes and smaller in their body size as well...so basically everything in africa are in herds an larger its just evolution at its best to form up to survive against these...

Migration’s and Herds

http://thewildsource.com/img/cape-buffalo-herd.jpg
http://www.eastafricashuttles.com/images/migration.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwyewsGNf0k
http://www.beaute-dafrique.com/images/elephant%20herd.jpg
http://wodumedia.com/wp-content/u...rds-Crossing-Lake-Bed-in-Sun.jpeg
http://img.ehowcdn.com/article-ne...oductive-system-hippo-800x800.jpg
http://africanphotoart.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/rhino-herd.jpg

But you know, even though you have an entire herd to back you up, that wont always stop the lion from killing your kind...

(Males)
In a very short period of time, the pride’s young have proven themselves to be extremely skillful at buffalo hunting, and this sighting was an example of an immaculate execution of such a hunt. Without the experience of the 2 adult lionesses, the Sparta Pride has been forced to rely on the power of the young males in the pride to provide.
http://blog.londolozi.com/2010/09/buffalo-thrills-and-lion-kills/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9fzXmcUgGI

Even though still in coalitions, an not taking the prey down like the (Solitary) tiger, these encounters prove 2 things...

1.) That the reputation of Male lions, of always being 22 hour a day sleepers are myths and hear say, they hunt just as much alone as the lionesses an or coalition's do; and like stated above by George schaller from over 2 years of observing them hunt in the wild (Males) are the most sucssesful of hunting bull buffalo, not the females.

2.) In both these encounters above, are in something the tiger rarely approuches any formidable animal through...The Open Grounds... which the tiger uses dense jungle thickets to ambush its prey, while the lions must use brute force an baiting tactics to steam roll there way in an take there prize.

Would a tiger be able to just waltz in a buffalo herd; and take out a juvi or adult, without being slaughtered by the brute bulls?

I highly dought it.




Last edited by Silver Prime on Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:09 am; edited 57 times in total
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